#### Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Options

# Finances of the Azimuth Project

I created a wiki page

It occurred to me, that there has so far been no easy access to that information, especially for newcomers who don't know about John and Andrew.

I am not sure whether the current information about the wiki and forum hosting is right, I have extracted that info from the discussion. Please correct if wrong.

• Options
1.
edited June 2014

Title was misspelled, I renamed it to

However given the current financial transparency of Azimuth it would be important to learn more about the financial backing of this offer.

Comment Source:Title was misspelled, I renamed it to * [[Financial Resources of Azimuth]] Nad, what is the motivation for creating this page? On the thread about Dara Shayada, you wrote: > However given the current financial transparency of Azimuth it would be important to learn more about the financial backing of this offer. What is your concern here?
• Options
2.
edited June 2014

I'm all for acknowledging the efforts of us volunteers, but this page sounds more like a formal financial disclosure of finances, including the income sources of the Azimuth members.

One day we may want to apply for grants and get non-profit status. (As a long term goal, I hope we get there.) Then certain requirements will set in. But right now, aren't we as free as birds -- as long as we comply with the laws?

I trimmed down the description of David Tanzer there. People can always go to my home page to learn about what I do.

Comment Source:I'm all for acknowledging the efforts of us volunteers, but this page sounds more like a formal financial disclosure of finances, including the income sources of the Azimuth members. One day we may want to apply for grants and get non-profit status. (As a long term goal, I hope we get there.) Then certain requirements will set in. But right now, aren't we as free as birds -- as long as we comply with the laws? I trimmed down the description of David Tanzer there. People can always go to my home page to learn about what I do.
• Options
3.

I've removed the bit about me. I'd need to know more about why this information was needed before I was happy with it being there.

Comment Source:I've removed the bit about me. I'd need to know more about why this information was needed before I was happy with it being there.
• Options
4.

I’m all for acknowledging the efforts of us volunteers, but this page sounds more like a formal financial disclosure of finances, including the income sources of the Azimuth members.

I’ve removed the bit about me. I’d need to know more about why this information was needed before I was happy with it being there.

I don't know what you do if you look at a certain website, especially one on which you would like to volunteer on, but I usually look, where the financing comes from. This is important in order to be able to judge how independent a project like this is. John and Andrew are math professors, so it is clear that they might amongst others promote mathematical methods, math and math education with this project. By their life-styles it seems one should not expect that Azimuth is a rip-off project (????!?!??!??!). Finally John uses Azimuth to further his students education with this project, so indirectly the math department of UC Riverside is kind of involved in financing Azimuth. As I understood the math department of NTNU had hosted the forum, so actually we should also mention this. And even if you Andrew did the hosting work may be in your freetime: Azimuth is last not least an effort for mathematics education, even if in some math departments IT services are not valued as they should. In principle you worked for your boss even in your freetime...

Letting the reader know about the motivations and backgrounds makes oneself more vulnerable and yes it is a question to which extend this is safe, but on the other hand it may further the credibility and trustworthiness of the project. Judge yourself: if Azimuth would be financed by the Oil industry - how much would you trust the results - especially assertions about greenhouse gases?

Comment Source:>I’m all for acknowledging the efforts of us volunteers, but this page sounds more like a formal financial disclosure of finances, including the income sources of the Azimuth members. >I’ve removed the bit about me. I’d need to know more about why this information was needed before I was happy with it being there. I don't know what you do if you look at a certain website, especially one on which you would like to volunteer on, but I usually look, where the financing comes from. This is important in order to be able to judge how independent a project like this is. John and Andrew are math professors, so it is clear that they might amongst others promote mathematical methods, math and math education with this project. By their life-styles it seems one should not expect that Azimuth is a rip-off project (????!?!??!??!). Finally John uses Azimuth to further his students education with this project, so indirectly the math department of UC Riverside is kind of involved in financing Azimuth. As I understood the math department of NTNU had hosted the forum, so actually we should also mention this. And even if you Andrew did the hosting work may be in your freetime: Azimuth is last not least an effort for mathematics education, even if in some math departments IT services are not valued as they should. In principle you worked for your boss even in your freetime... Letting the reader know about the motivations and backgrounds makes oneself more vulnerable and yes it is a question to which extend this is safe, but on the other hand it may further the credibility and trustworthiness of the project. Judge yourself: if Azimuth would be financed by the Oil industry - how much would you trust the results - especially assertions about greenhouse gases?
• Options
5.

Motivations is fine, but one has to be careful with the wording that one doesn't indicate responsibilities that do not exist. NTNU is (currently) hosting this forum, but that should not be viewed as endorsement on their behalf. The reason that it is hosted at NTNU is because I use the same software and database for all of my forums and one of them is a discussion forum for students at NTNU.

Comment Source:Motivations is fine, but one has to be careful with the wording that one doesn't indicate _responsibilities_ that do not exist. NTNU is (currently) hosting this forum, but that should not be viewed as endorsement on their behalf. The reason that it is hosted at NTNU is because I use the same software and database for all of my forums and one of them is a discussion forum for students at NTNU.
• Options
6.
edited June 2014

I took the liberty of changing the title of the page from "Financial resources of Azimuth" to

I think it's good to let people know how the project is financed! As Nadja says, an important part of evaluating information on controversial subjects is understanding who paid to make it available. Nobody pays serious attention to us yet, but if they ever do it will be nice to have all these things completely transparent, so we might as well start now.

But, I expanded the topic from "financial resources" to "finances" so I could add some information on how much I'm paying for different things... in part so I can remember this, and in part because it will help people see how ludicrously cheap the whole project is. When things settle down at your end, David Tanzer, it would be nice if you could also say how much you are paying for different things. Ditto for you, Jim Stuttard! (I guess when things settle down Andrew Stacey will be paying nothing.)

Comment Source:I took the liberty of changing the title of the page from "Financial resources of Azimuth" to * [[Finances of the Azimuth Project]] I think it's good to let people know how the project is financed! As Nadja says, an important part of evaluating information on controversial subjects is understanding who paid to make it available. Nobody pays serious attention to us yet, but if they ever do it will be nice to have all these things completely transparent, so we might as well start now. But, I expanded the topic from "financial resources" to "finances" so I could add some information on how much I'm paying for different things... in part so I can remember this, and in part because it will help people see how ludicrously cheap the whole project is. When things settle down at your end, David Tanzer, it would be nice if you could also say how much you are paying for different things. Ditto for you, Jim Stuttard! (I guess when things settle down Andrew Stacey will be paying nothing.)
• Options
7.

Andrew wrote:

NTNU is (currently) hosting this forum, but that should not be viewed as endorsement on their behalf.

In some sense they endorsed you via employment and they pay for the servers, which are under your responsibility, so I think in some sense it is to be viewed as endorsement on their behalf. As said I can imagine that Azimuth would be regarded as a "grey zone" of academic mathematical activity for quite some people in math departments and so I understand that you feel uncomfortable with that. I think Azimuth should be well-regarded as mathematical activity, in terms of job opportunities for students it may even be more justified than some concrete math research.... But yes if something bad should happen here at Azimuth that fact could be used by your enemies/rivals or whatdoIknow to shoot you down, finally - you were operating in a "grey zone".

John wrote:

But, I expanded the topic from “financial resources” to “finances” so I could add some information on how much I’m paying for different things… in part so I can remember this, and in part because it will help people see how ludicrously cheap the whole project is.

Yes this makes sense. By the way in this context it would also be interesting to see the work hours invested by volunteers.

Comment Source:Andrew wrote: >NTNU is (currently) hosting this forum, but that should not be viewed as endorsement on their behalf. In some sense they endorsed you via employment and they pay for the servers, which are under your responsibility, so I think in some sense it is to be viewed as endorsement on their behalf. As said I can imagine that Azimuth would be regarded as a "grey zone" of academic mathematical activity for quite some people in math departments and so I understand that you feel uncomfortable with that. I think Azimuth should be well-regarded as mathematical activity, in terms of job opportunities for students it may even be more justified than some concrete math research.... But yes if something bad should happen here at Azimuth that fact could be used by your enemies/rivals or whatdoIknow to shoot you down, finally - you were operating in a "grey zone". John wrote: >But, I expanded the topic from “financial resources” to “finances” so I could add some information on how much I’m paying for different things… in part so I can remember this, and in part because it will help people see how ludicrously cheap the whole project is. Yes this makes sense. By the way in this context it would also be interesting to see the work hours invested by volunteers.